The following exchange
occurred on Speculations Rumor
Mill, my favorite Web hangout for genre fiction writers. This particular
discussion concerns a grammatical problem that plagues almost every writer
I know, including me. If you're still confused after reading this, head
for your reference shelf and study up. That's what I have to do,
too.
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Message #1834 left
by Ruthie on May 16, 2000 at 4:38
I have a question about the possessive 's'. This is not a question about "it's" or "there's" as in "it is" or "there is", it is a question on how to use the apostrophe in cases of where the noun or pronoun is possessive. (hope I stated that correctly) Two ppl told me that in the case of a sentence like:
"The ships thrusters fired..." there is no apostrophe but now someone else tells me that there is an apostrophe if it's a noun.
"The ship's thrusters fired..."
and "The color of Jacks hair is brown..." or
"The color of Jack's hair is brown..."
"Jacks dog is brown..." or
"Jack's dog is brown.."
but that if it's a pronoun there is no apostrophe! If it's too complicated could someone point me to a good site that explains this. Thank you... rjb
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Message #1835 left
by Nikki on May 16, 2000 at 5:48
If it's a possessive, the noun or pronoun needs to have an apostrophe (its being the only exclusion that I can think of off hand, it's is it is/was, and due to the contraction has the apostrophe). But in your examples, the correct way to do it is:
"The ship's thrusters fired..."
"The color of Jack's hair is brown..."
"Jack's dog is brown.."
(think of it this way, (except with "its"), if something belongs to the noun/pronoun/subject, the apostrophe shows that. The dog belongs to Jack. The hair belongs to jack. The thrusters belong (are part of, in this case, but still) to the ship.)
Hope this helps and that I'm actually reading the question correctly.
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Message #1836 left
by DaveK on May 16, 2000 at 8:01
His, her, our, and their do not need an apostrophe. They're already possessive. People have trouble with "it" because an "s" has to be added to make it possessive.
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Message #1837 left
by Lenora Rose on May 16, 2000 at 11:45
Uh, Dave; the first time I read your post I thought you meant an " 's" has to be added to make it possessive. Your description was correct, BUT the "" make it a little harder to read...
To look at it another way, "Its" is the possessive form of it. It confuses people because it's the one where you have to REMOVE the apostrohe to make it possessive. "Its" is in the same group as "his," "her," "their," and "our," NOT the same group as "Jack's," "Susan's," "The ship's."
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Message #1838 left
by Andrew on May 16, 2000 at 12:34
Possessives come in these fine flavours:
1. One noun is doing the possessing without the use of a possessive pronoun - add 's to the end. So, the dog's leg or legs, the man's hat, the lady's tendency to bite and so on.
2. Two or more nouns are doing the possessing - add s' to the end if the plural is formed with an s on the end. So, the dogs' legs, the men's hats, the ladies' prerogative if they happen to be feeling that way out.
3. Where the noun doing the possessing is the pronoun "it", where we just add an s. It's is short for it is, and doesn't denote that it is possessing anything at all.
4. Where we use a possessive pronoun - my, your, his, her, its, our, your, their - we don't need the s anywhere, since the possessive is denoted by the pronoun anyway. Hence: My elegant and educated use of language, your tendency to prolixity, his longwindedness.
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Message #1839 left
by Terry on May 16, 2000 at 13:26
Andrew: (I want a medal for not squealing when I saw the word "prolixity" -- we named our younger cat "Prolix" because she's so talkative, and I *never* expected to come across another human being who knew the word!)
Ahem. Your #2 "if the plural is formed with an s on the end" begs for the follow-up: If the plural is NOT formed with an s on the end, such as, um...feet. Teeth. Men. Women. Geese. Mice. Children. Whaddya do *then*, Mr. Smarty-Pants? (oops, sorry, the cookie I had after lunch just unloaded its sugar in my bloodstream)
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Message #1840 left
by RSWebb on May 16, 2000 at 16:41
And what about monosyllabic singulars (e.g. lass)? And the notorious z sound?
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Message #1841 left
by John Savage on May 16, 2000 at 16:43
Terry, words that change their stems to form their plurals are treated as if they are singular. Thus, "his feet's odoriforous bouquet."
I'm proud of myself. I think I matched all the verbs and subjects and kept them all parallel! Which is more than I can say for the property surveyor in the real estate closing I was covering this morning. "Parallel boundaries," huh?
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Message #1842 left
by Mary on May 16, 2000 at 18:31
The possessive of lass is lass's. Regardless of what the word ends with, if it's singular, it gets the 's.
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Message #1843 left
by Tom on May 16, 2000 at 20:58
How about Jesus and Moses? Jesus' Jesus's ???
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Message #1844 left
by RSWebb on May 16, 2000 at 22:14
I'll quote my dictionary
1) all nouns that do not end in a s or z sound- 's (feet's)
2) all nouns that do end in a s or z sound, EXCEPT monosyllabic singulars and nouns that end in ce - s' (Moses')
3) monosyllabic singulars and nouns that end in ce- 's (lass's)
4) "some" pronouns- 's (everyone's)
Mary: "Regardless of what the word ends with, if it's singular, it gets the 's." Minus one point- polysyllabic singulars do not get the 's. (Moses')
John Savage: "words that change their stems to form their plurals are treated as if they are singular" Minus two points :-) a polysyllabic word that changes stem, ends in a s or z sound, and does not end with ce gets the s' (Axis, Axis' Axes Axes'). Also, although your rule gives the correct result for polysyllabic words that change stem, end in a s or z sound, and do end with ce (dormice's) you are right for the wrong reason, so you lose a point for that too.
Andrew: "Where we use a possessive pronoun - my, your, his, her, its, our, your, their - we don't need the s anywhere" Minus one point- some pronouns use the 's.
Terry- plus one point for not attempting to answer grammar questions.
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Message #1845 left
by Ruthie on May 17, 2000 at 5:02
**Deep bows** to all. Most sincere thanks to all who contributed to the "apostrophe" question.
I found some really nice grammar sites on the web. I got 17 wrong spellings out of 50 and they were usually the ss or nn or sc ones.
Thanks RSWebb; your explanations always makes my brain do somersaults and that can be dangerous as out of shape as it is right now.:)
Tom and Mary I think I'll avoid the hard ones like Moses' or is it Moses's.
John, I think my shoes' (shoes's) have an odiferous bouquet, especially in the summer...
Thanks, DaveK, Lenora and Andrew for the "its" explanation because I was previously incorrectly placing an apostrophe in between it and s.
Terry gets a medal for not squealing...and I must go back to editing...
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Message #1846 left
by Terry on May 17, 2000 at 10:29
Thanks, Ruthie!
But John, those odiferous feets have been haunting my imagination. Ew.
BTW, unless anyone objects, I plan to lift this mind-bending discussion of plurals for my Light Bulb Alley. I do plan on updating my web site sometime soon...I've gotten a bit behind with it, and many other things, in the past few weeks. When Ruthie first entered her "plurals" question, I didn't think it would amount to much, but My God! Who'd have thought the English language could weave such spaghetti around something so seemingly simple??? I have a *little* bit more sympathy for ESL people who say English is the hardest language to learn as a non-native speaker. I still think it's the greatest *written* language, though. (I reserve the award for best to listen to, to French. Sorry, Andrew. Don't hate me.)
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